March 24, 2011

"I think that there has been a lack, a loss of confidence in the public square with the legislature, and on this issue [GRAMA]. And so it just demands us to push the reset button."
-Governor Herbert

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GOVERNOR HERBERT: Good morning.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED-7: Good morning, Governor. Thanks for joining us today. As a further note of explanation to our viewing audience, I do want to point out that we're meeting on Thursday morning for the recording of this exchange, and that, of course, is in advance of the scheduled special session of the legislature, scheduled for Friday, March 25th. In that context, there appears, Governor, to be some reticence sense on the part of certain Utah state senators to address your call to repeal House Bill 477. As we meet, have you gained a greater sense of whether that resistance is truly there, or do you believe that 477 will, in fact, be repealed on Friday?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I believe it will be repealed on Friday. There is some reticence, I think, in the senate, in particular, and I think they're going to have that discussion tomorrow, and I think come to the conclusion that it's best for us to push the reset button and start over. I think that's best for them, best for the legislature, best for the people of Utah. And I think they're going to come to that realization, and so we'll wait and see what happens.

TASHA COOK, KUER-90.1: GOVERNOR HERBERT, given the public outcry over House Bill 477, do you have any regrets, in hindsight, would you have done things differently?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, hindsight is certainly a little clearer picture from most of us. But I think we did things right under the circumstances. Again, we faced a very significant veto proof majority, 80 percent in the senate, 74 percent in the house, and in the heat of the moment, the potential for an override was very real. And I thought that we could kind of take some time, give some distance, let cooler heads prevail, and come up with a pathway to success when it comes to getting the right outcome, which is really what we all ought to be concerned about. Get the right outcome when it comes to reviewing the GRAMA statute, and bringing it into today's new technology. Maybe just for clarification purposes. And as you see, that's taking place now. I think we are going to get a good outcome, our study group is in place, and I expect that we're going to have something all of us can feel good about.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Governor, when you talked about this, you said you learned about the bill about a week before it was made public. At that time did you express any reservations about it, or were you supportive of it before the bill was

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I expressed concerns, in fact made a phone call from Washington, D.C. and talked with members of leadership, that I was not comfortable with what they were doing. I was surprised when I came back from Washington that they'd decided to move ahead. Again, I would like to dwell on going forward, though, rather than retrospectively saying, "Gee, what should we have done differently?" I think we're on the right path now and we're going to have the right conclusion, and that's the most important thing.

STEVE FIDEL, DESERET NEWS: Governor, perhaps you could tell us, then, the pros and cons of calling a session for tomorrow.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I think that there has been a lack, a loss of confidence in the public square with the legislature, and on this issue. And so it just demands us to push the reset button. And I think, although there are legitimate issues, I think, on all sides of this issue that need to be discussed, debated, have I think good faith dialogue, we just need to go back to square number one, and that's what's taking place. And so I think we're going to get, again, a positive outcome when this is all over, and I think sooner rather than later.

JOHN DALEY, KSL-5: Do you think the loss of confidence extends beyond 477, if you look at the Utahns for Ethical Government, they've been trying to bring a citizens petition, and have been struggling to do that? I think their view is that the state has put up a lot of road blocks to getting that done. It seems like you're hearing complaints on a variety of fronts, on a variety of issues.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, it's hard to message when you have 104 messengers, and that's the challenge that the legislature has. Laws have been created, and they need to be understood. And part of the challenge with the initiative petition process is right now on the books in law, which we've had for some time, is the requirement to have a witness to your signature. When you do that with paper, that's easy to do. When you do it with electronic signature, it's impossible to do. And so it's an issue that the legislature, I believe, should take up and say, if we're going to have electronic signatures on initiative petition process, we've got to reconcile the law. And that's the problem that the Lieutenant Governor faces with now, as far as trying to ascertain, have they done what needs to be done under the law? And actually in consultation with the attorney general's office, and reviewing the current statutes that are on the books, they just have a different interpretation. It may be decided in courts. That's what courts are for. But again, based on the legal review of the law, this petition process is not accurate, and is not able to be withheld by the Lieutenant Governor's office.

JEFF ROBINSON, KCPW: Governor, beyond HB 477, one of the most controversial bills you signed this session was HB 116 creating a guest worker permit in the state. Now it won't take effect for a few years, but it's caused a sharp divide, as you well know, within the Republican party, with many delegates outright pledging they will not support you in 2012. If signing this bill makes you a one term Governor, are you okay with that?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, we ought to make decisions based on what's the appropriate policy to put in place, and regardless of political consequences. Every elected official out to take that position and that's the position I'm taking. The House Bill 116, the immigration debate, just the contrary to the GRAMA debate, has been very open, very thorough. I mean the discussion's been on the table since early last summer. There's been press conferences, there's been discussion, debates, town hall meetings. I mean that process has been very thorough. And the legislature's debated it thoroughly and have come up with what the majority there believe is the right approach to a Utah solution, as we refer to it.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: You know, Governor, you're going to face, following up on that question, a convention system which is far different from what a lot of states do. Polls suggest that Utahns like what happened in the legislature, but the suggestion within the Republican party is they don't like it in terms of the grassroots committed delegates. Reflect on that.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, any system that you have to elect people to office probably is not perfect. You could go to all the fifty states and find different processes and procedures, and probably there's flaws in all of them. Our delegate convention system probably has some flaws in it, and tips the balances one way or another. I've been very supportive of the delegate system. It allows people like myself, that are kind of lesser known, don't have a lot of money, don't have a lot of fame, to compete on a playing field with people that have a lot of money, and maybe have some better name identification. So I've applauded that system. It works very well if people will show up. If the masses will show up to their mass meetings, our caucus meetings, then they will elect delegates that reflect their neighborhoods. If they don't show up, then special interest groups and extremes will end up getting elected because they're more zealous in their efforts and we applaud them for that. I think the system works well if people will show up and participate. It falls a little short if they don't. The general primary system, which many states have, again, gives more, I think, opportunity for the rich and famous. And that may be a good thing, may be a bad thing. I'm not here to pass judgment. I just think that it's a different system, and it has its own pros and cons too.

JOHN FLOREZ, REPORTER: Governor, last month you fired Forrest Cuch, the Indian director, without an explanation except it was personal, and you were going to go in a different direction. I spoke with the Indian tribe leaders yesterday, and he said they met with you but you didn't give them an explanation.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, that's not true. I met with them for two hours and we gave them a lot of detailed explanation. Whether they choose to hear the explanation or agree with the explanation, I guess, is for them to decide.

JOHN FLOREZ, REPORTER: What was the explanation you gave them?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I'll tell you. Again, as you all know, we have many appointments we make, and Forrest Cuch is a Governor's appointment. He served for 13 and a half years, and I think has done so very well, particularly his early service. But his service recently has been subpar. He has not done the things that I think need to be done as he represents my office to the native Americans.

JOHN FLOREZ, REPORTER: Did you tell him that?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: He's been insub We have people that do that. And so, again, he knows he has performance expectations that he should be reaching. Those were not being reached. And because it's a personnel issue we've tried to be very sensitive about the issues of concern. I wanted to, in fact, not have it public until I had a chance to meet face to face with the leaders of the tribal council. We did that yesterday. They know why he was released, and it had to do with his performance, which was not up to the par that we expect, and was hurting our relationships in getting things done in behalf of the native Americans. It was not acceptable to me. I had lost faith in Forrest Cuch's ability to perform, and the last straw that broke the camel's back was when he not only was insubordinate with some of the things he was asked to do by the Lieutenant Governor, but the native American summit, which is a key stone of what I started when I was Lieutenant Governor, he unilaterally said he was going to pull. It's not his decision, it's my decision. And that is, again, another indication that he was not representing my office with the native Americans as it should have been done. Now, that being said, that's past. The more important thing is what we're doing to replace that position. And I've asked the tribal council to engage, as we work on a replacement, a search for somebody, with the qualities that we all agree should be there found in that office. It's a very important position, and we're going to work with them to make sure that we have somebody that will represent the executive branch of the state of Utah in conjunction with the needs and demands of the native Americans in Utah that we're going to get some things done, and things that weren't getting done in the past.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED-7: Was it ill advised not to integrate the tribal leadership in that process of the termination? Because that's what I hear is one of the most adamant concerns, is they were shocked, stunned, surprised, however you choose to characterize it, that this decision was made, and they had no input and no awareness.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, personnel issues are difficult, and again, everybody thinks they should have some say in it. The fact, hiring I'm more comfortable with getting input. Give me your suggestions, your input, then I'm going to have to make the decision of who I pick. It's like a judicial appointment, we get a lot of input and do a lot of discussion and then we'll make a decision. Having a change at that position, it's like if I called all of you, you probably would like this, and say I'm going to change my communications director, and you say well call us first before you get rid of your current communications director. Well, it's my position. I have to make that decision based on what I think's right as the Governor of the state of Utah. And so that's what I did. It was the right thing to do and I feel very comfortable it was the right thing to do in behalf of the native Americans of this great state.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: So when the tribes say that they would like you to apologize for the way it was handled, it sounds like you're not willing to give that.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: There is no need to apologize. Mr. Cuch knew what the expectations were, he did not reach them. And just like any other appointed official that the Governor appoints, he's subject to dismissal at the pleasure of the Governor.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: A group of environmental organizations has proposed an area surrounding Canyonlands National Park that stretches through much of south eastern Utah called Greater Canyonlands. They want the secretary of the interior to designate that as protected. What do you think about that?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, again, all these issues need to be reviewed, and I expect that we will. I've talked with Secretary Salazar here just within the last three to four weeks, invited him to come out to Utah again and discuss some of these issues that surround designations. Certainly the wildland designation, and what are we going to go forward on determining where is wilderness in the state of Utah? And again, I've put in place a procedure and policy with our balanced resource council to, in fact, discuss these things and come up with the right balance point. We want to make sure we protect our pristine areas of this great state, and we have many of them. We also want to make sure that we do not inhibit unnecessarily our ability to access our natural resource. We just rolled out, as you know, our 10 year energy plan. We have opportunities in this great state to, in fact, create economic opportunity in rural Utah, and also help create energy sustainability for not only Utah, but for the nation. And heaven knows we need that right now. So we're going to get together with Secretary of Interior Richard Salazar, with Robert Abbey, the director of the BLM, our own Juan Palma, who is the local state director for the BLM, and we'll work through these issues and I think we'll do a fine job of getting the right balance point.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED-7: Governor, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, now Fukushima. Each one of those has a profound influence on public opinion support for nuclear generated power, electrical power, to serve the public. You've given tentative, well, support to be inclusive of all energy resources for the future of Utah, and I wonder if your confidence is shaken by what's playing out, and the national calls for further study and review in light of what has played out with the Japan tragedy.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, my confidence is not shaken in the fact that we need to have the discussion. We ought to have the debate, the dialogue, the pros and cons on all forms of energy. Nuclear power is kind of the more sensational headline issue on energy, but all of them, whether we should be subsidizing, you know, any form of energy, whether that be wind power, solar power, or are we going to have energy all on the same level playing field, or as a society we think we need to, in fact, incentify more renewable forms of energy, that's a discussion and dialogue we ought to happen. The simple fact of the matter is, when you look at the math, for the demand we have in this world for energy right now, certainly over the near term, if not into the longer term, carbon based fuels have got to be part of the base load, or replaced with nuclear power. There is no way to make it work, the math doesn't work any other way. And so we ought not to shrink from the discussion, the debate, and that includes nuclear power. I'm not proposing that we have nuclear power in Utah, I'm not opposing that we should have nuclear power in Utah. We just need to have the discussion and see, is there a role for nuclear power in Utah's future? There may or may not be. The issues of water are legitimate. Do we have enough water to support a nuclear power plant? The storage of the waste material, that's a legitimate discussion. Right now waste has to be stored on site. Again, the federal government set up years ago, 1981 or '82, I believe, to have a nuclear repository for spent rods. They've kind of diverted from that, at Yucca Mountain. So we need to have that discussion, and I think it would be healthy for us to have that discussion.

JOHN FLOREZ, REPORTER: Governor, you have three immigration bills. What advice would you give the undocumented people? Would you advise them to come forward to sign up, or what would you tell them?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, the immigration is such an emotional issue, and it's very passionate on all sides of the issue. It's a difficult thing. The frustration that everybody feels on all sides of the issue is because of a lack of action by our federal government. That's where we need to put the pressure. They've been sitting on the sidelines for way too long, and states have been forced, now, to step into the breach in that vacuum, and say, well, if you're not going to do something, we will, in fact, do something. And as imperfect as it may be. And again, we have families that are caught in the middle of that, and the challenge we have of finding a resolution to this is based on securing the borders, and also making sure we have a common sense naturalization immigration process.

JOHN FLOREZ, REPORTER: But what would you tell them?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: We don't They need to, in fact, get legal. If you're illegal, get legal. Whatever it takes for you to get legal, to get your documents, do it. Don't sit back and think this is going to somehow magically go away, because it's not. They have a responsibility to abide by the laws. Everybody does. All of us have that responsibility, and we cannot just wink and nod and say, "Well we'll enforce the laws over here, but not in this instance."

JEFF ROBINSON, KCPW: Governor, the state liquor commission is meeting today, debating which liquor stores to close as a result of $2.5 million in cuts handed down by the legislature. Commissioners have noted that these stores generated $18 million in profit for the state. How does this move make any sense?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I'll let you ask the legislature that when you have an opportunity. They were fully funded in my budget proposal, and I think all of us wonder, you know, if we're making money, revenue over expenses, why would you close down a revenue source? But that being as it may, $2.2 million in cuts are now being mandated to the Alcohol Beverage and Control, and they've got to make those cuts. Most of the expenses are labor, and government is labor intensive, and that's certainly no exception with our alcohol distribution. So they're going to have to review those. They are in the process of reviewing and deciding which are the ones that will be most, I think, able to sustain and still maintain revenues, maybe where we've got liquor stores closer together, that there will be an ability to close this one and still people access the purchase of alcohol in this other store, and therefore our sales not go down. I think that's the belief. I think the legislature believed that, you know, we're cutting in other places, everybody kind of needs to share the pain. And we have to work through that. But the whys and wherefores you need to ask the legislature.

JOSH LOFTIN, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Back on other ways to save money, like they did last year when they were told to close a couple of stores and they didn't, would you be okay with that?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Say that again, I didn't quite hear.

JOSH LOFTIN, ASSOCIATED PRESS: If they found other ways to save money to make those cuts, like they did last year, would you be okay with that?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Again, I'm not much into micro management. You know, I think we need to let those people that have the expertise to manage their own portfolio and their resources. I think that's a wise thing to do. It's not always perfect but I think it certainly is better than people that manage it from afar, and maybe don't have quite the understanding of all the nuances that take place. So I'm perfectly capable to let other people, and I do that with my own cabinet members, that, look, we've got to make some cuts, I'll let you decide where those cuts are, based on maybe a set of principles and parameters. So again, I think that's a better way to do things, I think we'll get a better result on behalf of the taxpayer.

JOHN DALEY, KSL-5/DESERET NEWS: Back on 477, part of the discussion has focused on how time consuming it is for staffers to gather the materials for some of these records requests, whether it's at the state level or, you know, towns and counties. Should, at least the state government, increase the number of people who are working in some of those areas, give them some additional staffing so that they can help to do that, and at the same time meet their other duties like helping the legislature with their bills?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: It may be going forward, and I think we'll find this out as we have this stakeholders work group, you know, plow through these issues and the pros and cons. I expect them to say, "What is the cost to making sure we have a GRAMA law that's open and transparent, protects the public's right to know, and deals with all these GRAMA requests?" And they are accelerating. We're getting more of them all the time. Again, I hate to create legislation by anecdotal story, but everybody's got a story. And in my own office, I know when Mike Lee and Tim Bridgewater were running for senate, that became kind of a focal point. We had GRAMA requests that came in on every piece of correspondence they had ever done when Mike Lee was the general counsel for Mike Lee, and Tim Bridgewater was the volunteer education director for Governor Huntsman. That took hundreds of hours, and a lot of time. And we only have five days to do it. So maybe there ought to be just an extended period of time, maybe ten days. Maybe we need to have a GRAMA office that will handle those things. It's just a cost of doing business. And I think those things need to be explored. At the end of the day, I believe we want to make sure that we protect the public's right to know, make sure that we have openness and transparency in government, which is what everybody wants to have. Too, understand that there are some individual rights of privacy that ought to be at least calculated. We ought to at least understand that. And even if you're an elected official. But it's not just elected officials, it's people in the public that don't realize it when they correspond with their legislature that that information could be subject to GRAMA. And lastly, again, there is a cost element. What are we willing to pay to make sure we have the technology, the storage systems, the capability to respond to GRAMA requests and understand that the taxpayers are going to have, at the end of the day, foot the bill. So again, all those things need to be debated. I think they will be debated, and I believe that we're going to come up with the right solution, the collect solution for the people of Utah, with those three principles being adhered to.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: Governor, it seems like the underlying reality to this debate is that we live in a state with a super majority, and that's even accentuated in our government, more than three fourths of the legislature being Republican, and being even more conservative than probably the broad spectrum of Republicans. The challenge, I want you to reflect on the challenge of governing in a super majority, being open in a system where you can make decisions in a closed caucus that are really the decision.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Again, the legislature needs to decide what they think they should do to get the outcomes they desire. I think most of us would like you to err on the side of more openness and transparency. But sometimes there's probably a need, and I see the need on occasion, as I hear the legislature talking about having some hard discussions internally. But again, I would advise us all to look at the outcomes that, again, Republican, one party rule has given the state of Utah. You know it's pretty darn good. We're rated about number one in everything. Number one for business, number one for fiscal prudence, one of just a handful of states that have a AAA bond rating. We have volunteerism in the state of Utah that we're number one. We're number one in exports. We've doubled our exports in the last five years and we're going to double them again in the next five years. We're the hot bed for small business creation. More SBA loans in Utah than any place in the country. We're coming out of the economic doldrums right now. We are leading the nation in economic expansion. So again, we may criticize the process and the makeup, and yet we say, at the end of the day we've got a pretty darn good product that's coming out of Utah that other states are now trying to emulate. They wish they were as good as Utah. I wish they were too.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Right now you have about an $83 million, $85 million bond bill on your desk, which you haven't signed. My understanding is that you're contemplating vetoing that bill. Can you tell us where you stand on that now and where you're going to go?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, I go through the process with all the bills, and generally there's three options. I can sign them, I can veto them, or I can let them go into law without my signature. And this is no exception. This bill is not exceptional. I've had some concerns about the bonding and whether we can afford to borrow the money. It's, some of the arguments are if you're going to borrow money, now would be a great time because the interest rates are so low and we do have a AAA bond rating, which means we get the money a lot cheaper. Again, one of the advantages we have as a state that's been very fiscally prudent, as we're being able to do things now, like build roads. This thing that you're going to see this weekend down in American Fork city, this bridge we're moving into place, part of our $1.1 billion road project with I 15, we're able to do with our own money, by the way, because we've been fiscally prudent and we've got a AAA bond rating. So I'm going to review that and in the context of the overall budget, and make a decision in the next few days. We have opportunities to do some good things with that money. I just want to make sure it doesn't cause us some undue grief, fiscally, as we go down the road.

JOSH LOFTIN, ASSOCIATED PRESS: But would it have made more sense to use rainy day funds instead of bonding for some of these projects?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, there are more than one way to skin the cat, and that could be a feral cat. But you know, there's different ways to do things. This is one way. It could have been done another way. I don't particularly like using more of the rainy day fund for that. I think we want to make sure, because we're getting, we have about a $50 million structural imbalance. We could have used some of it. You want to have that offset, again, I think as we go to the bonding rating agencies, they like the fact we've got reserves in place, and that we're in good shape fiscally. So one way is probably as good as another way.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED-7: Governor, we've hit the time cue and make leaves time for one of the easiest questions I've probably ever offered in the news conference. Do you see BYU making the final four?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, I think they have the opportunity. They're starting to come together as a team, even though they've lost the big guy in the middle, there, and we all got a little Jimmer mania going, here. So if Jimmer can light them up, if the team can contribute and they play like a team, which is what basketball is about, is a team effort, I think they've got a shot at the final 4.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED-7: GOVERNOR HERBERT, thank you once again. A reminder once again to our viewing audience, this program is pretaped on Thursday morning in advance of both the special session and the weekend developments in basketball. Thanks for joining us. Remember, you can view a transcript of this and every Governor's news conference online at www.kued.org. Until next time, thanks for joining us.

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