February16, 2016

"We ought to have fairness and level playing fields when it comes to the education of our students..." Governor Herbert

ANNOUNCER: KUED presents the Governor's Monthly News Conference, an exchange between Utah reporters and Governor Gary Herbert.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Good morning, thank you for being here. Before we take questions, let me make a statement if I can about an issue that's of significant importance I think to us all right now, maybe heightened concern, having to do with the ongoing cooperation we need to have with our state agencies, our local communities, our police officers and departments when it comes to the public safety.

Each of these organizations are charged with--in fact, the number one responsibility of government is to protect the public safety and welfare. And we need to work together to make sure that we achieve that goal. And unfortunately, as we've seen in recent weeks and months, we've had some breakdowns in that effort, in my opinion.

In the last week, the Department of Corrections has already implemented several changes as a result of these concerns based on internal investigations. Some of these corrective actions include immediately erring into detainees, and finding relevant information that's been gathered from local law enforcement and the Department of Electronic Databases that need to be entered, and that have not been done so in a timely fashion. 

I'm encouraged by yesterday's announcement by Rollin Cook, our Department of Corrections director, as well as Sheriff Jim Winder, that they're working together with local and state agencies, and forming a fugitive response team to go after those who, in fact, walk away from particularly the Fortitude Treatment Center. And I'm prepared to commit state resources and energy and efforts to help in this ongoing effort.

Today, I'm also calling for an independent review led by Kristen Cox in my Office of Management and Budget. And as part of that effort in that review, we'll have an internal auditor who'll review internal controls, and the arrest records, and communication process, along with local law enforcement agencies, and adult probation and parole, and the Board of Pardons and Parole, and particularly also with the courts. Again making sure that we have, in fact, collaboration, and cooperation, and sharing of information.

Some of these entities fall under state purview. They are state agencies and part of the executive branch. Others do not. But I am asking that all local and state agencies, in a renewed spirit of cooperation, work together to find out where there's need for improvement and where we can, in fact, fix some gaps that seem to be in the process. We all remember, and should know, that our data that we have when we review and make decisions is only as good as the information we provide each other. And so, we need to make sure that we're, in fact, providing this information in a collaborative effort. I also am calling for a full review of all operations and procedures at the Fortitude Treatment Center.

Over the weekend, the Department of Corrections worked with local law enforcement agencies to conduct two separate operations. One, a full scale search of the Fortitude Treatment Center that resulted in nine offenders being returned to custody, and for violations of their parole. And two, a community search for high profile probation offenders and parole offenders, resulting in another 12 offenders being arrest and returned to jail or to the Utah state prison. Now finally, let me just say this.

I appreciate the tremendous work and sacrifice of those involved in law enforcement. The overwhelming majority of these folks are dedicated and committed to doing their best efforts to keep us safe. And they go out the door every day and put their life on the line, and that effort to have us to be in a safe environment. And we need to do all we can to protect them as they work to protect the public.

That being said, we know that errors have occurred. We need to find out what's caused those, whether it's been ignorance or intentional, and these mistakes made by employees are inexcusable. And one of the basic functions, as I've mentioned, of government is to provide for public safety. And as part of this audit, if we find individual employees who have been derelict in their sworn duty, they will face discipline up to and including termination.

I expect the local jurisdictions would respond in a similar fashion, again, as we work together for the good of the public that we serve. So, if there are non-compliant parolees housed in this facility, or other issues anywhere in the state, we must work together to get them off the streets and behind bars, and protect the public from their wandering the streets and potential reoffending.

Now, this independent review has already started. And any additional corrective action that I've mentioned here today will start immediately, with the intent of making sure that we're doing everything we can from the government side to make sure that our number one focus is on protecting the public and keeping them safe. So, with that, I'm happy to take any questions you may have today.

ERIK NEILSEN, KUED: Governor, last time you were here with KUED, you said that you supported the idea of a medical marijuana bill. And recently, the LDS church came out against the idea of such a law. And so, I have a couple questions about that. First of all, do you think that the statement by the LDS church diminishes the possibility of a medical marijuana bill being passed? And as an active member of the LDS church, how did that statement make you feel?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, first let me just say that I don't know how much impact that the statement of the LDS church had on the legislature. As you recall, the same bill, very similar at least, was presented last year and did not pass. And there was no statement made by the LDS church then. So, I think it's probably a little bit of a leap to think that somehow this statement has made any more dramatic impact. I think the intent to study and understand the benefits of medical marijuana used for medicinal purposes is a good one. That has not changed my mind at all because I think if we have the ability to develop a medicine which will help people, and then we ought to see if we can't develop that.

But it ought to be based on science and not just anecdotal stories. It ought to be based on, you know, good medical review. And it ought to be a controlled substance, just like any other medication. And I said, I think, before that also the federal government has a role to play. We need to, in fact, change the laws that will allow us to have appropriate research and to develop the science which will help us develop it as a medicine and for medicinal purposes. So, I think that goes forward. And we'll have to wait and see what the legislature decides to do, but I think that's kind of the embodiment of all the bills up there, certainly the two main bills when it comes to medical marijuana.

ROD DECKER, KUTV2: Governor, back to public safety. The state of Utah changed policy in the last legislature. They said, "We are going to lock up fewer criminals. We are going to have more criminals on the street." Pursuant to that policy, if I remember correctly, you said you wanted fewer criminals back in prison. You wanted more, once they got out, to stay out. Has that policy affected public safety for the worse?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: It's probably too early to tell, the cause and effect of the justice review that's taking place here, the act we've had, which was designed, remember, for non-violent offenders. This is designed to help people to transition from behind bars back into society so that they will not reoffend. Particularly emphasis has been on those who have some substance abuse problems, drug addicts, those who have mental health problems.

We have, at the local level, you know, drug courts and mental health courts to help people rather than just warehouse them, to help them be rehabilitated. So, that's the intent of the justice reform that we're involved with, and the hope would be that that would, in fact, probably have less people behind bars, where we actually help improve their lives. So, at the end of the day, the hope is that they don't reoffend, that they actually transition, and we have less crime. So, we want to review every policy we have when it comes to criminal justice. And corrections ought to be under constant review to see if it's working or not working. And this is no exception.

ROD DECKER, KUTV2: Is your policy still in effect that fewer criminals should go back to prison? That, for example, Mr. Henderson could have gone back, but didn't. I don't know whether that was pursuant to your policy. Is it--is that policy--do you stick by it so far?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Yes. I don't think there's reason to change the policy yet because I don't think we know. It's only been in effect since October 1st. Mr. Henderson, clearly we didn't have information that came from the courts about new charges that were transmitted to the Board of Pardons and Parole. They may have made a different decision, we don't know. And let's make sure that we are clear about the--you know, the issue and the shooting. That was his responsibility, and he's the fault. It's not anybody else. He's the one that was the criminal. He hadn't--you know, we want to have non-violent criminals to transition to help them. And I guess you're non-violent until you become violent. He was. In fact, there was warrants out for his arrest. That may have been why he left the scene of the crime. So, don't create an issue where he's the one to blame and somehow it's somebody else's fault. He's the one that pulled the trigger.

ROD DECKER, KUTV2: Excuse me.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I was going to say, so the intent, though, of what we're doing was for non-violent offenders to say, "Rather than just warehouse you behind bars, is there, in fact, a way to transition you to give you the help you need for rehabilitation, to get over your substance abuse problems, your mental health issues to be treated so you won't go out into the streets and reoffend?" That's the point was to reduce crime in the public square.

ROD DECKER, KUTV2: Here just now, you spoke quite sternly about some employees who may have been derelict. Do you have reason to believe that there may have been some dereliction? Can you tell us any specifics?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, it's under review, and so it'd be probably premature for me to give any specifics, but in fact, if we find people in our transitional centers like Fortitude, which is a treatment center to help people transition back into society, they have, you know, the freedom to come and go, to work, come back. They have to check themselves in, so there's some freedom there. But if they, in fact, do not do things appropriately, then they, in fact, have to be put back in and maybe incarcerated in something with bars that does not let them out. And if somebody's let that slide, then that's probably a disciplinary action. So, that's what we want to review.

We have about 3,500 people out there on parole, and there's parole violations. I know it's been reported here today that we have about 260 different felons that are out that were now wanted. And those people, well, it could be a violation of parole, they didn't report, they didn't show up at court, they didn't talk to their probation officer, parole officer. There's all kinds of different violations out there, and that's a concern. That's part of the process, though, and it happens regularly. We need to make sure we tighten that up. And if somebody is, in fact, derelict in their responsibilities of oversight, then they need to be held accountable for their not following correct protocol and procedure.

ROD DECKER, KUTV2: Is there some reason to look, some reason to investigate and to think that maybe at the outset, there might have been some dereliction by some employees?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Again, we want to review to see. Again, I don't want to pass judgment.

I just know that it's a concern. We have a little bit of a spate here of issues, particularly with the Fortitude Treatment Center, that's caused us a little bit of anxiety, but that's just one center. It's throughout the state. We just want to make sure that we're doing all we can to protect the public, and to do what would be responsible in making sure that we--to keep the bad guys off the streets. We also know that there's a time when they're released and they're put on parole or probation.

We need to make sure that that's being handled professionally and correctly to make sure that we get the best end result for the public that we possibly can in our role and responsibility of keeping the public safe.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: Governor, I hear some concern, though, from you that this could jeopardize the good that's trying to be accomplished with the Justice Reinvestment Initiative. Something similar is going on at the federal level right now. Do incidents like this threaten programs like that that are intended to help transition people out of the system, to save them, to save us as taxpayers?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I don't know if it threatens our desire and goal to protect the public and make sure the public is safe, but also do what we need to do to punish the offender, but also to help the reoffender be rehabilitated. It's really a two-pronged attack. Our efforts have been concentrated on non-violent offenders. And we know that there're some people that probably will never be able to be rehabilitated and need to be behind bars the rest of their lives 

That's a challenge, though. And we learn from different programs what works and what does not work. It's always probably an evolutionary process that we need to be willing to discuss and say, "Is there ways to make improvement?" This is what's working, this is where maybe it's not working as well, and we can make some adjustments. That's what this is about. And the fact that we've had some issues that have taken place over the last few weeks and 3 or 4 months just gives us heightened anxiety and maybe more motivation. Let's take a look at this, let's make sure that we're doing the right thing.

BOB BERNICK, UTAHPOLICY.COM: Let's talk about politics just for a few seconds if we might be able to get away from the justice thing for a moment. You're trying to collect 28,000 signatures for your reelection campaign. Do you intend to go forward with that, and get all those signatures, and hand them in?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, the simple aspect of what we have here of a complex situation because of so many different lawsuits and legal interpretations going on out there I think gives any of us who are running for elected office, you know, some pause. The end goal is to, of course, win the election. 

We know it's a competition, and we need to go and do what we think is the best way to put our, you know, our vision of the future of Utah forward, and get the votes necessary to win re-election. As the attorney general has told us, and the elections office in conjunction with the attorney general's office, the only sure way, the only guarantee to be on the ballot in a primary election is to do both pathways. Go to caucus--or go to convention and see if you can get the delegate support there, and also get signatures. It's prudent that I do both. It's prudent that everyone running for office do both if they want to ensure and guarantee that they're going to be on the ballot. So, we're going to do both.

I'm happy to defend the record we have, which I think is a very, very good record, and the vision we have for the state of Utah going forward. And as we gather, in fact, our signatures out there, we're encouraging people to go participate in the caucus and then in the convention. So, we're trying to hopefully drive more turnout. I'm a big supporter of the caucus convention system, but it works best when people show up and represent their neighborhoods appropriately. It's when the many show up that we get good results. It's only when the few that show up that we end up having more extremism that takes place.

BOB BERNICK, UTAHPOLICY.COM: Do you think you can win the--you need 60% to win the convention and eliminate your opponent. You have one right now. Do you think you can get 60%?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I'm cautiously optimistic that I can. Again, we have a great track record.

My goodness, I don't know if you saw the latest Gallop Poll that just came out here just yesterday asking the states, the respective states, what they felt about the economy of their states and what the future outlook was. Eight-four percent of Utahans said that they think the economy in our state is excellent. And 83% of the Utahans believe that it will be even better going forward.

We were by far number one in America when it came to our optimism about the future of Utah and our economics. And I think that's encouraging. Again, it's the number one issue for most Utahans is the economy, and second only to education, which are kind of joined at the hip. So, I understand that the public of Utah, and really most of the country when they look at Washington DC, they say Washington is on the wrong track, going in the wrong direction. Dysfunctionality causes a lot of frustration.

But I'm pleased to see here in Utah that people say, "Hey, we're on the right track," where they feel very good about what we've done, and they feel very good about where we're going. And again, that's the tribute to this administration and everybody else who's a part of the effort, the private sector, our education people, our business community, our entrepreneurs. My goodness, we're probably doing as well as we've ever done in the history of this state.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Governor, it's been nearly 2 months since you received the memo from the Commission on Stewardship of Public Lands, since they made the recommendation for proceed on this litigation course. Ball's kind of in your court, yours and the attorney general's right now to decide how to proceed on that. Have you made any progress on that? And how is that decision colored by the events that have unfolded in Oregon?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, again, I've said before--I'll sound redundant here, but there's three different ways we deal with the issues with the federal government, in particular with the public lands. We negotiate as best we can to get the right outcomes. And negotiation takes place, is ongoing. Second is legislation, the Public Land Initiative is a good example.

The Washington County Lands bill, which we did a few years ago, is another example of let's put together legislation that, in fact, resolves the issue legislatively through an act of Congress. That I think is a very good and stable way to do it. The third way, though, is when we cannot agree, we can't negotiate.

For example, we can't agree on RS. 247, roads and rights of way. We've tried and the counties have tried to say, "Hey, we'll stipulate these are roads and these are not roads. Let's just negotiate it out." Others say, "Nope, we're not going to agree to that." That leaves us no other choice but to litigate. So, it's going to be a combination of all three. And certainly the idea of litigation on the public lands to resolve these issues is on the table.

That's what the legislature is talking about now. The $14 million, I've said that seems a little bit high, but you know, think of it more of a place holder. I don't think it will cost that much money, frankly, and we'll have to go through the appropriate protocol and do a request for proposal procedure that's outlined in statute. And the lead of this is going to be the attorney general's office.

And so, again, it's not going to be just turned over to some outsider group. The legislature's got some opinions, they've got some advice, and there's the legal theory that they've presented, which I think is intriguing. But make no mistake about it, when it comes down to the litigation, which will take some period of time, it's going to be led by the executive branch 

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: But how--the second part of that is how the events that have unfolded in Oregon influenced or colored your decision on this issue.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I think the events in Oregon just kind of, yes, outlined the frustration that many people feel because of the lack of good communication and understanding between the federal government and people that reside within the states. It ought to be a wake-up call for all of us that there is legitimate issues out there that are causing frustration leading to, I think, poor behavior. I don't think having armed conflict and confrontation is the right way to resolve these issues, by the way. But we ought to, in fact, negotiate.

We ought to talk to each other and have better communication with a kind of mutual respect and understanding of difference of opinion, see if we can reconcile those differences. And what we can reconcile legislatively, let's do. And if we can't, you know, we ought to be arm in arm and say, "Well, we can't reconcile these legislatively, and let's go to court and see if the courts can make the determination." And that ought not to be a problem.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: So, you're not concerned about the perception of the state of Utah sort of espousing the same views that the people in Oregon are espousing in terms of taking back the federal land as a--

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I think they're different issues and different points of view. And what's happened in Nevada and what's happening in Oregon is not necessarily the issue we're talking about here in Utah. We're talking about obligations that were given to us at the time of statehood. We're talking about the change that's taken place since statehood in 1976 with FLPMA, whether that act that was put to stay the requirement of the federal government to dispose of lands, whether that's constitutional.

Those are interesting legal questions which probably will only be resolved in court, unless we can negotiate a settlement and change something legislatively. So, those are different issues. But again, the underlying issue is one of frustration. And by the way, this is not just unique to Utah. As we can see, it's a lot in the west, and people have public lands, and it's not just a Republican issue. We've had sagebrush rebellions that have been led at least three or four times by Democrat governors. So, the frustration is bipartisan, and mainly resides here in the west, where we have a lot of public land.

ROD DECKER, KUTV2: Some people say that the--including one of your predecessors, Governor Leavitt, that the state's foster system is headed toward crisis. Is the state's foster child system headed toward crisis? Do we need to take action?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, the foster program to help young people get in stable homes and stable environments is a significantly important one. There's testimonial after testimonial of people who have been rescued because of good foster care, and have grown up to be very good, productive citizens thanks to the foster care that's taken place, and putting them in a good environment to learn.

So, there's necessary resources to make that happen, to be able to attract good people into the program, and help compensate them for their care and their love that they give to these foster kids. So, it certainly is a concern. It's always a balancing act of how much to put in in comparison to all the other priorities we have out there, and that's the challenge the legislature has in trying to, in fact, apportion money as appropriately in all the different areas of concern.

MICHAEL ORTON, UTAHPOLITICALCAPITOL.COM: Speaking of challenges in the legislature, governor, one of your favorite topics, education. As you're aware, the state charter school board is meeting as we record and live stream this press conference. Their president, Howard Hedley, has been lobbying pretty hard for Senator Howard Stephenson's HB--excuse me, SB 38, which attempts to find some equity funding for charter schools. Evidence is mounting and some allegations are mounting that President Hedley would personally profit from the passage of SB 38. And if there's some conflict there, how would you go about addressing that with the charter schools?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, he's not a legislator, and so whatever he's lobbying for, you know, it'd be his own personal responsibility. And if there's some conflict, you know, that ought to be ascertained. I don't know of any issue where he personally benefits. I think he has a sister that's involved in the charter school business, and maybe she will benefit monetarily. But I would not know anything to comment on him personally.

The idea, though, of parity with our public school institutions, which includes charter schools, is one that probably most everybody can embrace. We ought to have fairness and level playing fields when it comes to the education of our students, whether they're in traditional public education or whether they're in charter schools.

And you know, charter schools are about 10% of the overall public education system, and most people would recognize that, depending on--no matter where you go to school, we ought to have the adequate resources based on a per-student basis, and I think that's what we're trying to do.

Last year, we did some equalization, and about $75 million, $76 million that was put in to level the playing fields, which we did good for the traditional public education, but it made the difference between public education and charter schools, because they were not a part of that, a little bit larger. And so, this is an attempt this year to, in fact, get this back in so we have a parity across the board for all of our public education system.

ERIK NEILSEN, KUED: Governor, we have about a minute left. What do you think about another bid for the Olympics in Utah?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I think we need to look at that seriously. We do have the ability. We've proven to be very successful. We're one of the few, if not the only Winter Olympics, where we actually made money. The venues are in place. Another place, it's going to cost them $1 billion or more to get to where we're at. So we are, in fact, ready, able, and willing to do it, and we'll have to wait and see what happens with the Summer Olympics. If it goes to Paris, then maybe there's an opportunity for us in 2026 to bid on the Winter Olympics. And we can do it better than any place I think in America, and maybe any place better in the world.

ERIK NEILSEN, KUED: Wonderful. Thank you, Governor, for joining us today.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This has been the Governor's Monthly News Conference. An archive of transcripts, video, and audio is available online. Please visit kued.org. Thanks for joining us.

 

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