September 18, 2014

"So I think we've brought something that everybody, on all sides of the Common Core issue, should say, "Hey, that's a step in the right direction." We'll finish that by the end of this year," Governor Herbert

KUED presents "The Governor's Monthly News Conference," an exchange between Utah reporters and Governor Gary Herbert. This program was recorded earlier.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Good day to you.

DAN BAMMES, KUER: Governor, thanks for joining us. We understand you have an opening statement today. 

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I just want to say it's good to be back. As you know, most of last week I spent in Washington, D.C., and addressing issues that are germane to the people of Utah. Had an opportunity to meet with the Department of Education and talk about our educational approach here in Utah. The Department of Interior, talked about our Public Land Initiative and what we're trying to do there with our public lands and energy development and natural resources and farming and ranching and those things that occur on the public land. And then was able to meet with the Department of Health. And talked about our Healthy Utah approach here in Utah as an alternative to Medicaid Expansion.

In addition to that, we met with our congressional delegation; we met with many congressmen and senators in both sides of the aisles, Democrat and Republican alike, and all curious about the successes of Utah. So I had a very successful trip to Washington, finished off with Steve Forbes, who is a big fan of Utah and congratulating us on a great success economically and other ways that we're creating a good atmosphere for business to excel. So in ways we've never considered, Utah really is being appreciated by many outside of our borders in ways that we have not had in the past. And so, it's good to be back but I'm grateful for the recognition that Utah is receiving on more of a national stage here recently.

DAN BAMMES, KUER: Governor, you said you met with the Department of Health. You have said you're close to finalizing an agreement with the federal government on your Healthy Utah plan. Assuming you can do that, then you have to sell it to Utah's Legislature. Do you think you're prepared to do that? Do you think that'll happen before our election?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, the plan has always been to have a special session to bring them back in to digest, to have them--the Legislature have the opportunity to study the pros and the cons of the Healthy Utah approach. They need to do their own due diligence and so I recognize that's going to take some time. The first priority of business, though, is to make sure I have an agreement that I feel good about, myself, with the Obama administration. And Secretary Burwell's worked very diligently, very hard with our people here in Utah on really a weekly basis to get us to the point where we are today. And we're probably within 95% of getting all that we've asked for in the beginning. I feel good about that.

We still have some work to do on some of the details on the work effort, used to be called the work requirement. Don't get confused with the nomenclature; it's the same thing really. But as we get that done and I feel good about it, then I'll have the ability to take it to the Legislature. The devil is in the details. I need to make sure the details are worked out so that I can present that to the Legislature so they can decide where they come down on the issue.

DAN BAMMES, KUER: Which detail is the devil residing in?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, in a lot of them. But the idea of having the recipient pay part of the premium was an issue. The idea of increasing co-payments was an issue. The ability for us to charge people that use the emergency room for non-emergency room medical services is an issue. We've got those all resolved. The work effort that say that when somebody comes in and receives and desires to have healthcare benefits as we give that to them we also help them improve their job opportunities. If they're unemployed and able-bodied, we're going to help them get a job. If they're underemployed, we'll help them get a better job. We'll do that analysis as part of the process for Healthy Utah. That's a good thing, by the way, for the working poor or those who are not working who are poor.

Medicaid was designed to be a transitional instrument, to help people that have bad economics until they get into better economics. So we're marrying our workforce programs with our Healthy Utah to address both aspects. You need healthcare? Great. You also need a better job. We want you that need government assistance to get the government assistance you need but then to help you help yourself get off government assistance. So this is a new concept. It's taken some time for the Department of Health to kind of embrace that but it appears that they have embraced that concept at our last meeting so I feel very good about going forward and hopefully can resolve the devils in the details issue in the next 2 to 3 weeks.

BOB BERNICK, UTAH POLICY.COM: I'm still a bit confused. Do they--what if they get onto the healthcare plan and refuse to take a job that you have found for them?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, that's yet to be determined. We do have programs in place right now already with our TANF program, Temporary Aid to Needy Families, our SNAP program, that say to people if you want government assistance and if you don't take advantage of the opportunity, then we have the ability to cut you off from additional government assistance and including, you know, healthcare. So that's a part of the discussion as far as, you know, how we do that, what the process will be. But that certainly is on the table under current existing government programs.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: Governor, the Health Reform Task Force met about a month ago. Representative Mike Kennedy, along with the rest of the task force heard stories from the working poor who were within that doughnut hole. And his response in part was--and he's a doctor--was to say that sometimes access to hospitals can actually cause harm because people get infections in the hospital, sometimes there's malpractice and people die. That was viewed by many as being rather insensitive, I wonder if you heard of those remarks and if you feel like that's representative of how your plan is going to be heard.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I've heard about the remarks and I haven't had a chance to talk to Representative Kennedy, have him explain or amplify what he meant by that. I think all of us recognize there probably is at least some truth in the statement that, as you've mentioned, people can get infections and you can be in a hospital and maybe exacerbate whatever problem you've got because you're in a place where there's a lot of infection and sickness going around. Certainly, malpractice occurs, you know, sometimes in hospitals with doctors.

But I don't think that means that we should eliminate doctors. Representative Kennedy is a doctor himself. I'm sure that he understands this significance service he renders to people who are sick. So let's not read more into that than is justified. For me, again, the medical industry out there is a Godsend to us, the technology, the advances in healthcare. We live longer lives, better quality lives. And that's amplified by the statistic that 100 years ago the average lifespan of an American was 49 years of age. Today, it's 78 to 79; for women, it's 82. So we've made significant advances in science and health and we appreciate those in the industry. We want to make sure that access to good quality healthcare is available to everybody in Utah.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: Don't statements like that hurt--

GLENN MILLS, ABC4: Governor, this week, the Sutherland Institute unveiled a survey that it commissioned. Basically, it found from its voters, it suggests that Utah voters are reluctant to pick any of the options on the table and when asked to compare all four, they picked doing nothing over the Healthy Utah plan. However, that starkly contrasts other surveys we've seen; one I'm thinking back in June showed the exact opposite. So one, what do you make of the contradiction in polling? And two, do you believe the Utah people know enough about Healthy Utah to make--to have an educated opinion on it? 

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I think they understand the concept of what we're trying to do. The idea of government assistance that comes from taxes that are already being generated from the people of Utah and redirecting that money into the private sector, private insurance, and through a Healthy Utah program which gives you better healthcare outcomes, more choices, better doctors, better healthcare. I think they understand that concept. I'd just as soon spend the money in Utah as have Washington, D.C., tell us how to spend the money. That's a concept, I think, most people can grasp.

We also have said that there are some individual responsibilities that ought to take place. If you're going to ask the taxpayer to help you, you ought to to be willing to reciprocate and take on some responsibility. By higher co-pays than what's allowed in the Medicaid Expansion, by paying part of the premium so you're not just on a government dole, that you have some skin in the game. And of course, the ability for us to--hey, the reason you're on government assistance is you don't have a good job. The economics don't work out for you. So let us help you get a better job. You'd think that people would say, "Hey, that's a great thing," and I expect that they will. So I think that's a concept that people understand and appreciate.The more you understand about the Healthy Utah program, the better--more likely people are to support it. I understand that, again, the public doesn't know the details. That's why I'm trying to get that worked out so I can present it to the Legislature and then we'll have a vigorous debate on the pros and cons of this issue.

And last point, and this is really a significantly important point, this is a pilot program. This is designed to be done over the next three years. There's a lot of speculation about what if we do this, what will happen, what are the results and it's all opinion. It's not based on really any facts. But the pilot program allow us to collect data so we'll know what is going to be the cost in the long-term to the people of Utah with the Healthy Utah approach? What's going to be the responsibility of the federal government in the long-term? Are they going to be willing to keep their commitments? What's going to be the benefit and the outcomes to the recipient of their healthcare? We're going to collect that data and in three years we can analyze it, modify, improve, decide to get in, get out, whatever we decide to do as a state. That's the idea behind this pilot program. Everybody should embrace. There's no reason not to do it.

GLENN MILLS, ABC4: So in terms of the conflicting surveys, though, do you think that's what it boils down to, is that the facts haven't been put out and debated thoroughly?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, listen; I have explicit trust in Dan Jones. He does my own polling. So I trust Dan Jones. He's the guru of all pollers in Utah history, most respected pollster we have probably near Inter-Mountain West and throughout America. He's one of the top. So his poll numbers I appreciate and I think they're accurate. The other pollster, I don't know. It could be a push poll, there could be a lot of differences that take place there in how they poll. I don't want to get into do polling numbers.

I'm doing what I think's right. I don't govern by poll. I govern by what should be good policy. And we have taxpayers who, under the Affordable Care Act and the flaws that are involved in that issue, have created the circumstances today where we are being taxed about $680 million. We're sending that to Washington, D.C. $258 million would come back under Medicaid Expansion. I'm just saying we have a better way to spend the money that gives us a better outcome, that deals with people better, and will help them have more choice for healthcare, better access, and better outcomes. Why don't we take advantage of that opportunity? It doesn't cost us a dime more money, and it really is a pilot program where we'll be able to analyze the results of that over the next three years and decide what we want to do going forward.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: One of the concerns the Legislature's expressed is the additional administrative costs and also this woodwork effect where people are going to be signing up for programs and it's going to end up costing the state additional money, somewhere in the neighborhood, it's going to--and they've estimated tens of millions of dollars. Do you have a better estimate of how much it's going to cost the state? And how do you plan to pay for that without a tax increase? 

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, our people here in Utah, again, our Department of Health and the people that have to administer the current healthcare programs we have in the state of Utah, believe we will, in fact, have savings. We'll have reductions. And so whatever cost that would be there to administer the Healthy Utah program will be absorbed by the savings we have in other programs we won't have to administer.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Can you explain why--where the savings will come from, do you think?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, again, as we collapse other programs that are designed to help the working poor that we have in existence now, we'll collapse that into one single program called Healthy Utah. So there'll be some administrative savings and, again, I think, overall, we should have really a revenue-neutral situation as far as the cost goes. Again, that's the benefit of a pilot program. Everything that's being said is pure speculation. The woodwork effect, what does that mean? They think that somehow, because of this Healthy Utah and the Affordable Care Act, that more people want to jump on Medicaid or, in our case, the alternative to Medicaid Expansion. Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't. Let's find out.

The estimates we have from the Department of Health is that we could probably go to the year 2020 without having any additional cost to the Utah taxpayer, based on existing taxes and monies that they're paying under the Affordable Care Act. So again, I think we have a very prudent and wise approach. Let's test the theory. Let's see what the results are and then make a decision going forward.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: Governor, it sounds like you're walking a pretty fine line here in how you describe this program. I mean, in Washington, it's now a work effort. Here at home, you're still talking in terms of work requirement. At least that's the hope and that's certainly what lawmakers at a minimum would want to see, some of your critics in the Legislature. How hard is this going to be able to sell, though, if it's just a work effort and people who don't, as my colleague said, don't take advantage of the opportunity to get a job for whatever reason aren't cut off from this program, as originally intended?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: What we're trying to do is describe accurately what's taking place with the Healthy Utah approach. The name "Healthy Utah" describes we want to have people in Utah healthy in every aspect of their life. That means not only with their healthcare needs, mental or physical, but also their economic needs. Being healthy means having a job and being able to sustain yourself and pay your bills and support you and your family. So that's all having a healthy human being. We're trying to address the whole person here with our approach here in Utah.

I--we've never said that in order to access healthcare you had to have a job first. So the work requirement that we've talked about has sometimes been misunderstood. Hence, that we need to talk about work effort, because if you came to us and said, "I need healthcare and I qualify under the parameters," we'll say, "Okay, sign right here. We'll help you get healthcare to take care of your needs." We're also, though, will analyze your work environment, your situation, and find out, hey, you're able-bodied but unemployed, we're going to help you get a job. If you are physically disabled, mentally disabled, we'll address that issue and see if we can get you into able-bodied capability so you can get a job. So healthcare may help you transition to able-bodiedness and get you a job.

There are medically frail or people that won't ever be able to hold a job. We'll just take care of them under Healthy Utah just as a healthcare. But we'll do an analysis to make sure that we help you if you need government assistance to transition out of needing government assistance. That's a much better program. It's a comprehensive program. So we're marrying the healthcare needs with the economic needs of the people through our Department of Workforce Service and marrying these together. It's going be good for the taxpayer, certainly good for the recipient. This is a better approach to healthcare and looking at the entire human soul of how we can help them.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: But that opportunity's already been available through Workforce Services for those able-bodied, low-income people in Utah that you're talking about, that would qualify for your Healthy Utah alternative. It's already out there and for whatever reason they haven't taken advantage of it. Have you talked to lawmakers about whether they'll accept this if they don't have to take advantage of it. 

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, that's the process we're doing now. We're working with legislators on both sides of the aisle, in the House and in the Senate, so they understand what we're trying to do, the concept. Because we already do do it, as a separate issue, it's not a hard thing to bridge them together. It's going to help us. We're just saying that by taking people and saying, "When you sign up for Healthy Utah, we're also going sign you up for the ability to have us help you find a job." It's an easy transition. This is not a hard thing to do. This is common sense.

So I think it's common sense will prevail at the end of the day, and we'll go through the details and I think that the Legislature will, in fact, appreciate and embrace what we're trying to accomplish, just as we've had the Obama administration come towards us and say, "Hey, this makes some sense." We've got Democrats now lobbying the Secretary of Health saying, "Hey, we like what we hear about Utah. This work effort is a good thing." And we would encourage you to let Utah try it out. 

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: Governor, you had--you're going to soon have the opportunity to appoint another Supreme Court Justice. Justice Ronald Nehring has announced his retirement. He's heard his last arguments. When he was initially appointed, he went through tougher questioning than any Justice in recent memory. Part of that questioning was about his faith. He's the only non-Mormon currently on the court. Is it a reasonable thing for you to consider religious diversity when you appoint a Supreme Court Justice? 

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, I look for the best person possible to put on the bench, that will be the best judge possible to put on the bench. And those are the qualifications I look for. And so I look at their legal background, their experience, you know, what they've done in their life when it comes to if they've been a previous judge before or their scholarly works if they've been involved in university or other private practice. So I look at who I think's going to be the best person on the bench. I never ask whether Republican or Democrat. I never ask what their religious denomination is or persuasion, if they have any at all. I look at their legal expertise and how I think they will act on the bench.

I'm very cognizant of the challenges of having a good judiciary. It's not something people really ever ask me about as I go around the state of Utah, certainly not been a really big political issue ever. But I know how significantly important it is who we put on the bench is. And I'm approaching the point where nearly half of the people in the courts of Utah, by the end of this year, will have been appointed by Gary Herbert. I take great pride in making sure that we sift through the pools that are sent to me. Many people go through the process and gradually it's fine-tuned until they usually send me about five applicants. I'm very careful about who I select and I feel very good about the people I've put on the bench. That's not a question I'm going ask.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: So diversity is never in any form or is it simply religious diversity that's not something you consider?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I'm looking for the best people, you know. Clearly, if we need some gender diversity and all things being equal, that could be a tiebreaker situation. I look at the complement on the bench, particularly in the appeals court. It's a team effort and so how these people can work together and have a complement of experience, as opposed to all being the same. But again, I want the best person on the bench, whether they're Mormon, non-Mormon, Christian, non-Christian, agnostic, male, female, it just doesn't matter to me. I want the best person on the bench. It's just as simple as that to me.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: Sorry.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: You mentioned you met with the Department of Education, the Education Secretary, I guess. Did you discuss--in other states, they've already taken action against the Core Curriculum. We've seen litigation out of Louisiana. Do you--did you discuss that with them and do you--you've taken some heat from your conservative base on this. Are you considering Utah's role with that, going forward?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, again, "taken heat." I think everybody wants the same thing, that's the funny thing about this whole debate on Common Core. Everybody wants to make sure that Utah is in control of our education system from top to bottom. Now I--and creating the Standards. They are Utah Standards, particularly in mathematics and language arts, but really it's in every category. It's not just in those two. We want to have high standards in all of the categories for the educational requirements here in the state of Utah. We also want to make sure that the curriculum, which sometimes get confused with the Standards, but the curriculum is controlled by the local people. That, in Utah, is controlled by local school boards, elected by the people.

We want to make sure that our textbooks and resources are acquired and purchased under the supervision of people of Utah, that we're getting the textbooks we want, that teach what we want, say what we want. There's not social engineering, there's not different history in there than we think should be taught. So that's controlled by Utah people and, last but not least, the testing.

So when we were at the Department of Education, we just said that very thing. That our school board has asked for a waiver of "No Child Left Behind," which most people agree with. We don't want to be in "No Child Left Behind." We want the waivers there. We also don't want to somehow cede our authority to control our educational system to the Common Core. There is a perception by some that we are doing that. So with this waiver, which is what I was there to argue for, is we're saying, we don't want to be "No Child Left Behind," but make no mistake Utah will control its Standards, its curriculum, its testing and resources and our textbook acquisition, which they seem to have embraced and I think they'll sign off on this new waiver request that's been sent by the state school board.

So I think we've brought something that everybody, on all sides of the Common Core issue, should say, "Hey, that's a step in the right direction." We'll finish that by the end of this year. We're having a legal review by our Attorney General's office to make sure that we have no legal entanglements, federal overreach or requirements that are being mandated to the state of Utah. And we're going to make sure that all these issues that people are raising are addressed, considered, and find out what the truth of the matter is and then go forward.

BOB BERNICK, UTAH POLICY.COM: Speaking about education, a judge has ruled--a federal judge has ruled that the current way that we elect a state school board is unconstitutional so going to have to be a change. Now, some of the Republicans in the Legislature want to have it a partisan election. Clearly, the Democrats don't. What is your preference? 

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, it is interesting the decision that Judge Waddoups has rendered. And we were trying to analyze that ourself in our office to see what do we do about it going forward. If it stands, clearly, there will have to be some kind of change made in our election process for school board members. It is of note, we've had the same process in place or similar since the early '90s, where committees have gone out and recruited people to run for office and then sent 3 or 5 names to the Governor, and then the Governor's appointed--put 2 on the ballot. In 2002, that was changed and modified to a single group--a single committee with balance between educators and business. So we have a more balanced approach to the school board. I think it's actually served us quite well, all things considered.

Who knows what's going to happen? I think you're going to have a robust discussion, depending on whether the Judge Waddoups' ruling stands or not. If it's appealed, has yet to be determined. But if it stands, then it'll probably renew debate about how it should happen, partisan, non-partisan, other opportunities. Could be by appointment of the Governor. I mean, that's another method that's used in some other states. So I'll be a part of that discussion, I expect. And there are pros and cons for different approaches are being brought forward. I'll reserve judgment 'til I've heard the pros and cons myself.

GLENN MILLS, ABC4: What do you think about the temporary solution agreement between the state and the plaintiffs to put two more candidates on the ballot this time round?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Yeah, I think it just created a lot of chaos to the ballot and it does say for those who didn't, why just these two and not the rest. I think the judge has put himself in a situation that it's hard to reconcile why you let two and not the rest. We're going to have to throw out the entire election system now, I mean, the entire elections. It may be that's been jeopardized so this November when we have elections, they may not withstand muster and we'll have to do it again.

DAN BAMMES, KUER: Governor, we have just about a minute left here. Tell us about your conversations with the Department of the Interior. What kinds of topics did you raise with them and what progress do you think you've made?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, we've made, I think, significant progress in them understanding we don't want a national monument to surprise us with some designation. They've promised me that that's not going to happen. We're making headway on our Public Land Initiative, sponsored by Representative Rob Bishop and Congressman Jason Chaffetz. I think it's a more comprehensive approach, to which everybody seems to agree.

We've had about 500 meetings regarding this now with all stakeholders. The environmental community is a part of it, the business community, the industry people, our farmers and ranchers. And see if we can't find a resolution to this issue that's caused a lot of, you know, consternation for people for many, many years. We think this is a good approach and they seem to embrace that. I'm trying to get, you know, support from other congressmen to support our congressman.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: Who promised that? That it wasn't going to happen?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Secretary Jewell said, "This won't happen."

DAN BAMMES, KUER: Thank you very much, Governor. You can find transcripts of this and other past Governor's news conferences on the KUED website. That's kued.org and you can also view a video archive, previous editions, at kued.org. Thank you for joining us, Governor. 

ANNOUNCER: This has been "The Governor's Monthly News Conference." An archive of transcripts, video, and audio is available online. Please visit kued.org. Thanks for joining us.

 

 

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