September 2001

Every 10 years, we go through this exercise. And it's painful. And not very pretty. It reminds me of that television program Survivor. But if you were to go to any state in the country, you'd see the same basic experience.

Reporters (in order of appearance):

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER
GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
CHRIS VANOCUR, KTVX-TV
ROD DECKER, KUTV, NEWS
TODD HANSEN, FOX 13
TOM JORDAN, METRO NETWORKS

Transcript:

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: Governor, welcome. A number of things to talk about today. Let's start with the special legislative session. Lawmakers, of course, approved new congressional districts which, among a number of other things, put a large portion of Salt Lake City residents now in the Second Congressional District in the First Congressional District. A traditional stronghold for Republicans. Was the process fair? And will you approve it?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Every 10 years, we go through this exercise. And it's painful. And not very pretty. It reminds me of that television program Survivor. But if you were to go to any state in the country, you'd see the same basic experience. If you were to go back 10 years in this state and read the papers, you'd see basically the same arguments being made, just different players. It needs to meet two standards. It needs to meet the standard of being legal, and it needs to be logical. Now, what legal is is a more exacting term than what logical is. With 104 people trying to come up with a version of what's logical, you can come up with logical in lots of different ways. The only one that's been approved by both bodies at this point is the congressional districts, and I'm at this point seeing no reason that they don't meet both of those standards.

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: I suppose beyond the legal question, is the technicalities, and beyond the notion that majority rules, what are I suppose the ethical standards which are in place when you're redrawing congressional boundaries?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Again, it's the legal and logical standard as far as I can see. It is by nature a political process. There are those states apparently that have a commission that develop a draft. But that is, again, a political process. Someone has to appoint them. It's just part of the way we go about managing a democratic republic like ours. And it's not pretty. But it's -- overall, it's proven to work.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: As far as logic goes, is it logical for Chris Cannon's district to come down, I think it grabs your house and Norma Matheson, Scott Matheson's -- excuse me, Jim Matheson's mother's home. Just a little thumb there in the district.

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: There's a lot of pieces I could argue individually don't pass the logic test. Or for that matter -- but there are overall -- you have to look at this as an overall. Because you're dealing with 104 people and 104 different agendas and 104 different beliefs as to what's best and 104 different strong-willed people, all of whom think they've got the best plan. And as I say, it's not pretty and it's not easy and it's -- there's more hard feeling I think floating around for the Capitol right now than at any time I have seen during my period of service. But it's -- hopefully, minds and tempers will cool and we'll get a bill and it'll pass and we'll move forward.

CHRIS VANOCUR, KTVX-TV: Governor, a fair number of Democrats and Independents are now perhaps wondering, do Republicans really want every major political office in Utah? Do Republicans really want every major office? And I guess, how much power for the Republicans is enough?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: You know, I think the Democrats would like to have every major political office in Utah. I think that's the nature of political parties.

CHRIS VANOCUR, KTVX-TV: But of course they don't.

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: They don't. And it seems that the push and pull of elective politics will determine that. Because it's not parties that make that decision, it's the people.

ROD DECKER, KUTV, NEWS: Do you plan to approve the redistricting bills that have been passed so far, the school boards, the senate, and what you've seen of congressionals?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I've not had a chance to look at the congressional bill. But I know nothing from what I've read or heard about it that would cause me to do otherwise.

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: When you say, Governor, this not been a pretty process, I wonder if you think that it was -- there's a sense among I think the community, some in the community, that might suggest that Republicans are sort of piling on. I wonder if you worry about this dividing the community more than it already maybe is.

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I think you have to look at a political landscape much the way you would a forest. It matures and develops over time. There are occasional forest fires that go through and wipe out a stand of trees, then another stand comes up. And it takes a long time for a political landscape to shape and to develop. And I think that this is part of the development and the evolution of a political landscape in our state. I don't question that this is going to have both immediate and long-term impacts. There will be differences of opinion as to what those impacts will be. None of us can really guess. But we will all see. And I don't -- so I don't pretend to know how it all shapes up.

ROD DECKER, KUTV, NEWS: A related topic, the Legislature passed -- at least the House passed a bill that would allow the Republican party to reconsider its decision to close its primary and allow only bona fide Republicans to vote in its primary. The sponsor said she was just correcting an error, but her opponents didn't believe her. The conservative Republicans say this allows Democrats to pick Republican candidates. Do you favor a closed Republican primary? Will you push this bill to -- will you urge the convention to reconsider next year?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I do not support closed primaries. I believe that political processes ought to be inclusive, not exclusive. I think it's in the interest of parties, whether its Republican or Democrat, to welcome voters into their process. Because we're not just picking party nominees, we're ultimately picking who will be the leaders of the state or the country. And I believe that it will not work in the interest of a party, whether it's Republican or Democrat, to have their voters, people who view themselves to be good Republicans, who vote primarily for Republicans, who may even make contributions to the party but choose not to affiliate themselves, for reasons that might be private and personal to them -- I don't see it's in our interest to tell them they can't participate in the primary election. And I support the idea of the party changing its course on that particular matter.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: A clear majority of the delegates felt otherwise, and they feel like they're being backdoored now with a special session bill that came in the middle of the night, all of a sudden appeared. What would you say to the conservatives in your party?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: It didn't come in the middle of the night. It's been talked about. Besides, that wouldn't change anything. Only thing it does is require that the date be changed. And if the party leadership and the party central committee chooses to put it before the next convention and have them reconsider it, they can do it. One of the worries I have generally about processes that like this one is that they take -- it takes a small group of people. They agree to be delegates at their mass meeting. They go to these meetings. The meetings can last from 8:00 in the morning -- early in the evening and go through the night and then the next morning, they come again. And by the time you get to 4:00 the next afternoon, there are lots of people who feel they need to be out mowing their lawn. And as a result, you end up with a very small group of people making decisions. I don't know whether a majority of the delegates will support it next year or not. If they do, that's what will happen. I won't be supporting it. I think it's a bad idea.

ROD DECKER, KUTV, NEWS: In your tenure as governor, one of the things you've pointed to with pride is education. However, if you look at the education numbers, when you came in, Utah was spending about 60 percent of its budget on public and higher education, and now it's spending about 43 - 44 percent. The Utah Education Association is meeting today. Apropos of that, there are cracks showing up, such as reading scores in the third grade in our education. Do you deserve to be pointing with pride? In fact, has education -- the Utah emphasis on education, has that declined significantly during your tenure?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I look with some satisfaction now and in the future, I believe, on the fact that our economy has expanded dramatically. And it's allowed us to dramatically increase the amount we've put into education. Over 85 percent more during the time that I've been governor. We've been able to reduce class sizes by nearly three students. We've been able to build over I think it's 150 new schools. Not just with state funding, but combined. We've been able to raise teacher pay from somewhere in the neighborhood of $27,000 to $28,000 into the high 30s. We're making great progress in funding. We've been able to do that and build highways and reduce taxes because we've had a very robust economy. Now it's pretty clear that for right now, our economy is not what it was a year ago or two years ago on a national basis, and we're feeling the pain of that. And I think we'll continue to. So I suspect that we may see the percentage of education spending go up. Because we won't have the overall dollars to spend to cover education and the other things that we've been investing in during that period.

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: Governor, of course President Bush this week is calling on governors throughout the country to call up members of the National Guard, various national guards. What is Utah's plan?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I have had a briefing this morning from the White House. And we will be activating certain assets of the National Guard to provide additional security at our commercial airports. And I'll be doing that with some promptness, and I'll have more to say about that later.

TODD HANSEN, FOX 13: Is this up to at your discretion, Governor, on what happens or not? Or is it a state initiative rather than a federal --

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: It is. There's a legal distinction. The President has asked that we act. He is not federalizing the Guard or calling out the Guard himself. He's asking that the Governors act. And as I indicated, I was on a conference call with most of the governors. And its clear that we will all be responding and responding in a fairly uniform and rapid way.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Do you think the National Guard is going to take a more expanded role now in the Olympics?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I do.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Do you have a plan where they'll be positioned, what areas they'll be providing extra security for?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: There's one being developed. Obviously -- we have a security plan that's been in place for -- or being developed over the last three years. We have the best in the business from all over the country, literally all over the world, working on this plan. There's considerable amount of resources being put to it. Substantially more than was used in Atlanta four years ago. And world events obviously have caused us to ask again what's changed and what do we need to do to make certain that all is being done that can humanly be done to assure safety. And we'll do that. We're generally speaking looking for ways to create fewer moving parts, and second of all, to enhance the number of people that are involved in providing security.

TOM JORDAN, METRO NETWORKS: Governor, on that issue, does the state have the money to make these expansions?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Well, we have adequate to assure that we have security. We'll also be calling upon the national government to be of help. But I've been given assurances, and I believe quite confidently that they will be. I'll be meeting in Washington with key representatives of the federal government, both Legislative branch and Executive branch, next week to discuss that.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Will This be additional officers, more than what the federal government's already committed?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I feel confident that there will be additional assets that are brought to security to simply make certain we're doing all that's humanly possible. We're going to have a successful Games. I think what's happened in the world in the last two weeks tragically has brought us to a place where the world desperately needs to have events like will occur in February 2002. We need to have events that will unify and transcend politics, that will allow for mankind to come together to celebrate basic values that we cherish. The values of peace, the value of courage, the value of personal best, of unity. There's no better symbol of that than the Olympic Games, where all of the nations come together and stand with their flags as one. And I believe that fate has called upon us to be the place where they will meet next. And we will do the job that's necessary to assure that it's a safe place and that we have -- that we host them well.

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: Did you always think that? I wonder if there was ever a time when you yourself wondered if we should cancel the Games or if they would be canceled.

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: No, I've never, I've never had that thought. If that tragedy had occurred three or four days before it happened, I think we would have all wondered what the circumstances would provide. But I feel quite confident that we're going to move forward, not just as a state but as a country and as a family of nations to say, We won't allow evil to overcome good. And for us to change the kind of events we have or to give us a reluctance to gather, celebrate peace and courage and human kindness, we would have allowed evil to prevail. And that cannot be allowed to occur.

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: Governor, I wonder about, is it too early for you to, or the state, I suppose, to assess the damage economically to Utah from this -- from these attacks on September 11th?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Well, it's considerable. I know that. And we are in the process of looking at our state revenues. I've been managing state government with the acknowledgment that we would likely have somewhere around an $80 million dollar shortfall than what we had estimated during the Legislature in January -- in February and March. Those numbers were pre September 11th. I don't know what the number will be, but it's clear to me it'll be a bigger number. The sooner we respond to that, the better. I have met with the Cabinet. I've got budget estimates being made. And we'll respond quickly, as soon as we have a sense of how much it is. But I feel confident that the events will cause us to have to manage with fewer revenues.

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: Are there certain sectors in the state that you're particularly worried about right now?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Well, I wouldn't say that there's any particular sector. I mean, this is -- we've had during my service, nine years of just extraordinarily prosperous times. And we are still a prosperous nation and a prosperous state. Our high-tech segment continues to grow at three times the national average. But we're seeing a whole series of repercussions of the national downturn. We've seen yesterday a reduction within Delta Airlines. It'll effect like 700 Utahn's We saw a consolidation among a couple of computer companies that will have some impact. We're seeing a slowing in the amount of venture capital. But this kind of thing's happened before. It will happen again. In the meantime, we'll just manage with what we have and do -- make the investments we can, just like a family would. There are times you do better than other times. And we're still a prosperous and blessed people.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Going back to redistricting, the state of Idaho, which is the most Republican state in the union, a few years back decided they needed to change their process and get an independent commission. And that's what they've done this year. They've come up with a redistricting plan, a reapportionment plan, presented by a bipartisan or nonpartisan commission. Yesterday, Al Mansell said the process in Utah has proven, to him anyway, that we don't need that here. What's your belief?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Well there are other states that do that, but again I'd point out, someone has to appoint the bipartisan commission. Then there are always going to be allegations that the appointments were made in a less than perfect way. Then the Legislature still has to meet. And all of those forces that come into being, where every region of the state is looking for a way to make certain that they're represented, if not better than others, at least as well as others. This is a very human process. It demonstrates I think that democracy really is a remarkable reflection of human nature. And there is nowhere that human nature plays out more fully than in reapportionment. Well, or the development of a budget. One of the two. I'm not sure. You start splitting up money and power brings out the humanness in our institutions.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: But you said it has to be logical and legal. Does it have to be fair? Do we want it to be fair?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Well, that's my standard. I think that fairness clearly is a standard to be achieved. But you will find I think at least 38 people in the Legislature who will tell you that this was fair. And in the House. And at least 15 in the Senate. And I believe they believe that. And what I've come to realize is that fair is often judged by people according to their own interests. And that's why democracy works is because it pits the various interests against each other. And there is a check and a balance that comes as a result of that. Again, this isn't -- I'm not suggesting this is pretty or something you really want to look at and say, Boy, that's the way democracy ought to work. But it is the way it works. And it does work.

CHRIS VANOCUR, KTVX-TV: Governor, do you think ultimately you and the state will be dealing with a three congressional map or four congressional map?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I think there's a very good chance we could be looking at a four seat congressional map. There's not a lot of attention paid to that. But the hearing that we had reportedly went very well. And I think our arguments are compelling. We've passed a four district map. I don't suspect North Carolina passed a 12 district map. But our ambition is for them to have to go back and do that.

ROD DECKER, KUTV, NEWS: The Goshutes are holding an election, and one of the issues is the proposed nuclear waste repository. The election is taking a long time. Indeed, West Desert is looking a little like Florida, I guess. Have you been paying attention to this? Are you doing anything other than sitting and waiting?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I am paying attention, but I'm not doing anything but watching. I have felt for a long time that there were problems inside the Goshute tribal nation. And I have felt for a long time that someone with proper authority from the Bureau of Indian Affairs or from the federal government, Justice Department or someone else, ought to be reviewing where all that money's gone and how it's been used. I think that there's obviously discontent from within the tribe for that very reason. There's -- there are problems there. And they ought to be looked at. Because there's been a lot of money provided to them. And it ought to be accounted for.

ROD DECKER, KUTV, NEWS: Are you going to ask the BIA to look at it formally?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I've asked them several times to look at it.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: You've taken a little more of a passive stance. So I understand when the dispute took place in South Salt Lake, the headquarters, your hand-picked attorney on the case, Monte Stewart, showed up. Nobody seemed to know why. And a -- we also got word that you had told the police to call the state troopers to come down. If there was ever the circumstance. Is that true?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Well, I don't -- I can tell you that I've not made any calls, nor have I directed any calls for state troopers to go anywhere. Because I think it was South Salt Lake police.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: But the troopers came down. They were called.

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: That was not at my direction. But there was obviously a disturbance that required law enforcement. They were having a fist fight. And it required some order. We are monitoring this closely. It has a lot of impact. And we're resolved. We don't want this stuff here. I mean, I, we've learned now, this is a different world. I don't want nuclear waste that is lethally hot for 10,000 years sitting out in concrete casks in the West Desert 40 miles from where we sit. I don't know how much of a target we want to be. And it troubles me, it troubles me that as we went through the environmental impact statement, that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission refused to even let that be an issue. Now, again, it tells me that maybe they don't have a lack of self-interest here. They've got an obligation to find someplace, and yet we've turned over to them the job of permitting this facility. I mean, this whole thing just doesn't pass the sniff test. I mean you've got all these problems going on in the tribal nation, and the BIA at that point has been unwilling to even take a look at it. When the BIA got the application -- rather, the BLM got the application, they reviewed it for three days and then sent it with their approval to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission saying, Well, if they say it's okay, it's okay. This has not been adequately developed. And we just don't want it, and we're doing everything we can, and if that means sending my lawyer down to watch the Goshutes fight, we'll do that too.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Did you send the lawyer?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: I didn't send the lawyer, but I told him to do -- I've asked him for briefings on a regular basis, and I'm getting them.

GREG BURTON, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: How did he find out about it that quick?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Well, who am I -- that's his job. I told him, "I don't want that stuff here, you figure a way to keep it out."

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: Governor, I wonder if you've had time now, surely you have, to sort of reflect on the events of September 11th, how Utahn's you think are reacting to all of this, how state officials are reacting to all of this, and if you've come to any conclusions about it? How do you feel about it all?

GOVERNOR LEAVITT: Oh, it's -- who has the words? It's heart-wrenching. Sickening. Sobering. I don't have enough adjectives, I don't have the right words to describe how I feel. I can tell you, I'm seeing impact at lots of different levels. Talking to my brother, who lives in New Hampshire, going to medical school there, he and his four little boys went out on the curb of their street and lighted candles on the day of prayer and reflection. And he said that in a few minutes, another family came out, and then another family. And they began walking down the street, and families from the entire neighborhood came and began to introduce themselves to each other. They hadn't known each other before. In the same neighborhood. And they got together and said, "We need to get to know each other," and there was hugging, and there was a moment when they came together. I went to a mosque, had three members of the mosque tell me that they had members of their community or their neighborhood, that they'd come to them and just said, "We just want to know you and we want you to know we care about you." Those are good things. And they've come from a very, very bad moment in our history.

DOUG FABRIZIO, KUER: Governor, thank you very much for the time today. And thank you for joining us.

Return to home page